HomeMy WebLinkAbout1987-2238.Sahota.88-12-14223%/%7
IN THE MATTER OF AN ARBITRATION
Under
THE CROWN EMPLOYEES COLLECTIVE BARGAINING ACT
Between:
Before:
For the Grievor:
For the Employer:
Hearings:
Before
THE GRIEVANCE SETTLEMENT BOARD
OPSEU (T. Sahota)
and
The Crown in Right of Ontario
(Ministry of Government. Services)
M.V. Watters Vice-Chairperson
G. Nabi Member
M.F. 0"Toole Member
M. Ruby‘
Counsel ~; '
Gowling & Henderson
Barristers and Solicitors
M.E. Cummings
Counsel
Mathews,~ Dunsmore, Dinsdale & Clark
Barristers & Solicitors
July 18, 1988
November 3, 1988
Grievor
Employer
._..,.,. Z.
.
. .
Thi
.,
Sahota dat
s proceeding arises from the grievance of Mr. J. S.
ed October 8, 1987, in which he alleged that.he had
the position of El.ectrical Inspector in
159. This position was for the London
been improperly denied
competition number GS-
District of the Realty
Ministry of Government
aforesaid competition,
Group-Property Management Diviiion in the
Services. At all times material to the’ .,.
the grievor was employed as a Maintenance
Electrician at th,e E~lgin-Middlesex Detention Centre in London, ~
Ontario. This facility is administered by the Minis.try of
Correctional Services. The gkievor has worked at the centre for
approximately eight years.’ He .feceived his provincial
qualifications as a Journeyman Electrician in 1979 md.had
previously obtained a similar certification in England in 1969.
His .resume, which was filed with this board as Exhibi.t ‘S’,
documents a varied work experience. We would describe .such work
as being,primarily “hands-on” with an emphasis towards the
installation, maintenance and repair of;electrical equipment.
The posting ‘for th’is competition read as follq,w:s:
“Required by the Ministry of Government Services,
Property Management Division, London District. Y 0 u w i 1 1 : -.: :;;
arrange for and inspeLt the installation, repair and
renovation of fire alarm, electronic and electr..icai
The posting.‘generated seventeen (1.7.) applica,t~ions for the
Pas i
to i
tion. After some initial pre-screening, a--d’ecision was taken
nterview ten (10) of the applicants. Applications and
systems and equipment at Government owned and leased
buildings/facilities throughout the District; prepare
preliminary sketches, estima~tes and scopes of work to be
used for preparation of tender documents;‘arrange pre
tender site meetings; ensure adherence of electrical
installation work to con.tract documents, by-laws, codes
and regulations; conduct final inspections of completed
projects; assess useful life of all electrical equipment
and sys terns.
QUALIFICATIONS
Valid Electrician’s Certificate of Qualification. issued
by the Province~of Ontario. Good knowledge of electrical
systems, relevant codes and regulations. Ability to
inspect work ca,rried out by contractors and prepare
related reports.. Good communication skills. Valid
Class G Driver~‘s .Licence.”
Exhibit 10
resumes were reviewed’by the panel established to administer the
competition. The grievor did not submit a formal application
form or resume at the commencement of this competition. Instead,
he applied by way. of a letter dated June 9, 1987, Exhibit Ill’,
which generally served to outline his qualifications for the job.
It also included a brief description of his current
responsibilities. The grievor stated therein that “On numerous
bccasions I have prepared sketch&s, estimates and scopes of.,work ;.. -
for contract documents, and carried out final inspections;” ~^I i
Interviews’were conducted on July 15, 16 and 20, 1987, by a panel
comprised of Mr. Eric Morris, Project Manager; Mr. John Harrison,
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to whom the succ.e.ssful candidate would report; and Mr. T.
Boniface, who was then an Electrical Supervisor in the
Operations-Maintenance section. This latter gentlemen was the
sole electrician on the panel. It was agreed that of the three
panelists, he possessed the superior technical expertise.
An Interview Schedule Sheet, containing twenty-three (23)
questions, was prepared for purposes of this competition. The
questions selected~ had apparently been~employed previously in
other similar competitions within the District. Que~scions 1 to
16 inclusiv~e weie under the heading ‘Technical’; questions 17 to
21 were related to ‘Inspections’; and lastly, questions 22 and ,2-3
focused on ‘Good Communicati~ons Skil,is - Oral’- ~Written’. The
interview sheet indicated the suggested answer and had a space
for the recording of the,ca,<didate’s ‘response. It also 9howe.d
r;- .~ the marks assigned for each ~question and, had a further area ii
which the interviewer could note the specific
particular candidate. Each of the interviews
approximately thi,rty to forty-five minutes, w i
marks assigned to a
lasted
th each panelist
asking a block of questions from the interview sheet in
chronological order. The panel endeavored to individually record
the answers given. While th~ere is some .confli~ct in the evidence
as to whether they each assigned a sepirate grade for each
question, it is clear that at the conclusion of an interview they
considered the answers recorded and their recollection of same,
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in order to arrive at a group or’?onsensus score for all answers
provided. The consensus scores were subsequently noted on Mr.
Morris’ interview sheet. As is stated below, it is important to
note that the only sheets filed with this board at the hearing
we.re those of Mr. Morris in respect of the grievor (Exhibit ‘13)
and a Mr. Szabo (Exhibit ‘14’). For reasons which were not made
entirely clear, the remaining sheets were forwarded to the Human
Resources Branch in Toronto after the competition and were not
retrieved for this arbitration.
A dispute arose at the heaking as to whether the panel had
actually reviewed a package of materials brought to the interview
by the grievor. This package included references from fdrmer
employers and his trade certifications. The grievor testified.
that the panel. declined to look et this mZ.terial. It w..as ‘-the
evidence of Mr. Morris that the package was-reviewed by each of
the panel at the conclusion of the interview.and. then returned to
.the grie.Var. We do not think that anything tu’;ns on this
discrepancy. nowever, from an assessment of all of the evidence
presented, we believe it more likely than not that the gri‘evor
was mistaken in his ;ecollection.-
The .top six (6) candidates at the end of the cntervie”
process “erg as follows:
.
. -
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:..
:
1.
2.
3.
4.
5.
6.
Mr. Ox-set-......,..7 1 out of 100
Mr.. Szabo ..... :..6 8 out of 100
Mr:.--Irving.. .... .63 out of 100
Mr .- Reynolds.. . :. 61 out of 100
Mr. Sahota.......LB out of 100
Mr. Edmonds...... 40 out of 100
The panel then arranged for the checking of references for the
top three applicants. Of this group, only Mr. I.rving was from
the bargaining unit. The remaining candidates, with the
exception of Mr. Reynolds, fell within the bargaining unit. The*’
positions we,re~ ultimately filled b’y Mr. Irving and hr.‘Szabo.
Mr. Orser apparently received a promotion from his ‘employer
immediately after the refer~ence check and for that reason
declined the offer extended to him. The panel did not’ consult ‘...
with the’grievor’s supervisors after the interview. -In the words
of. Mr. Morris, only the “successful candidates” were referenced. . ‘,
The panel also did not resort to the personnel files of any of
the candidates interviewed.
It is-necessary at this ju?cture to review in greater
detail certain aspects of the competition that was generally
described above. As noted, the panel elected not to review the
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personnel files of the persons interviewed. With respect to the
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grievor, his file contained, inter ali?., the following ,;.
information:
(i) a series of favorable references aris.ing from his
pre-government employment (Exhibit.‘6’);
(ii) attendance records relating to his employment-with the
Ministry of Co~rrectional Services. These disclosed
tha.t in eighties years, the grievor had missed four to
five days of.work in total. This record was the
subject of positive comment by the Attendance Review
Committee in 1982, 1983, 1985, 1986, 1987 and 1988.-
(-Ex;hibit ‘7’);
(iii) his two most recent performance appraisals, both
showing satisfactory performance of duties assigned
(Exhibits ‘8’ and ‘9’); and
,I
(iv) his. resume .(Exhibit ‘5’). i
Both Mr. Morris and ‘Mr-.‘- Harrison commented on this failure and
provided reasons for not reviewing the personnel files. The
former stated that he was trying to be fair to all of the
candidates and that-he wished to treat them all equally. He was
concerned that some prejudice could be occasioned to the external
candidat&~ if their records were not kept as comprehensively or
accurately as those maintained within the publ-ic service.. He
also quaered whethe~r ‘r,ecords.of other ministries could be
accessed for competition purposes,. The latter indicated that
within the context of. approximately sixty prior competitions, he
had never before looked at the personnel fil,ee. of bargaining unit
staff. While admittin,g to an awareness of the ,jurisprudence of
the Grievance Setfl~ement Board on this practice, Mr. Harrison
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st.ated that it wasn’t his ministry’s practice and “we didn’t have
to do that.”
The panel at the conclusion of the interviews determined
that the grievor, by virtue of his score, did not possess the
required level of competence to function effectively as an
.~nspector. Mr. Morris stated that an ~applicant would not be
considered fbr the position unless .they achieved a score of sixty
marks. He speculated that if forty-eight had been the highest
score assigned, then the. competition would have’ been re-run. Mr.
Morris and Mr. Boniface both testiif’ied that in their es:imation
.t&e. grievor had not demonstrated sufficient technical skill to
perform the “expert” tasks demanded of an inspector. Generally,
they categorized his prior experience as excessively narrow. ,In
their opinion, his previo;s work history was lacking in the areas
of inspection end contract administration. These witnesses
-.pe,r~ceived thes,e areas as core elements of the job applied for.
In summary; they appeared to cdnclude, that the grievor cduld not
;t.ransfer his skills from the preventCti,$ maintenance sector to the .
administration and inspection of new construct~io.n .projects. “The
pa~nel members therefore suggested that it was un<ecessary .to
review Mr. Sahota’s personnel file or to speak with his
supervisors. More spec.ifically, Mr. Morris stated that the
grievor would not have been hired even had these items been
canvassed. In’ his opinion, the grievor simply lacked the
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appropria.te technical expertise. Mr. Morris was candid Ian
admitting fhat this assessment was based on the answers.received
during the course of the interview. Indeed, it was the interview
that served to determine who would be referenced and ultimately
hired.
AS indicated above, the interview sheets of Mr. Harrison
and Mr. Boniface were not presented to this~ board. The only
documentation provided eo us in respect of the grievor’s answers .’
was the sheet completed by ?ir. ?iorris who had. acted as chair of
the competition panel. This sheet; showed the “consensus” scores
referred to earlier in this award. Such scores represented the
panel’s assessment based on what had been individually recorded
and on their respective recollections as to the content of the
answer. Unfortunately, Mr. Morris did not summarize on his sheet
the tea-sons for the~assignment of the consensus grade. Instead,
f;+
it merely reflected his initial comments. Mr. Morris ,i”~dicated ~
in cross-examination that material not found in the suggested
answer could be considered in assessing the response and
allocating~ a score. Mr. Boniface, in his testimony, suggested
that this was limited to the use of language different-from that
found one the answer sheet.
.
The grievor complained that his answers were nbt fully
recorded on Mr. Morris’ answer sheet. He testified that. the
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notations-shown thereon did not represent his “word for word”
answers. The grievor expressed the -opinion that the answers
recorded constituted a “shorter version” of what was actually
said. We were invited to conclude, therefore, that he may not
have received credit for parts of his answers which had not been
recorded. Mr. Morris, in his response, claimed that all a&wers
“pertinent” to the question were definitely recorded. He stated
further that “off-topic items” would not have been noted.
The position of the union was two-fold. First, it was
submitted that sufficient evidence had been adduced to show ~that
.~. Mr. Sahota was relatively equal to the fwo.incumbents in respect
of his qualifications and ability to perform the required duties
of the job in question. Consequently, ve were urged to award him
the, position of Electrical Inspector in view of his greater
seniority. Article 4.3 of the collective agreement was relied on
. -;,>;., :;:. ,. ~..
in this regard. Alte.;natively, it was argued that the ::;::.,,
competition was seriously flawed and should be re-run. In
support of this subm,ission, it was noted that the grievor~.‘.s
personnel file was not reviewed and that his supervisors had not
been consuited about his suitability for the position.
._ Additionally, the union suggested it was improper to utilize the
,interview as the sole cr~iterion -for. detcrminirg the successful
candidate. It was further submitted that the questions asked
fherein were insufficient to allow for a full assessment of the
r-
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grievor’s ability to perform the range of functions refe~rred to
in the position specification. Counsel suggested that, in the
circumstances of this case, a written “test” might have been more
appropriate. The following authorities were relied 6n.i” support
of the argument that the administration of the present
competi~tion was contrary to standards established by the
Grievance Settlement. Board: OPSEU (Clip,perton) and MCSS, 2554-87
cwatters;; OPSEU (Worsle‘y) and MGS, 347/81 (Draper); OPSEU
(Poole) and MOH, 2508-87 (Samuels).
In response; the employer c!o”cede,d that the competition
may not have been administered in strict conformity with the
jurisprudence relied on by the union. HOWeVer, it was submitted
that the process used was more than sufficient to produce
information that could lead the panel to properly Conclude the
grievor was not relatively equal to the incumbents. Counsel
argued that the results of the interview clearly demonstrated ,
that the’grievor did not possess the technical abiIity to perform
the job. She there~fote suggested that a review of the personnel
file or a consultation with the grievor’s supervisors would not
have advanced Mr. Sahota’s intete’bts. Counsel also alluded t6
the practical difficulties that might arise in attempting to
‘access the personnel files of applicants f,rom other ministries or.
from outside the bargaining unit. Give” this possibility, it wars
submitte~d that it was both reasonable and fair to disregard the
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personnel files. Lastly, the employe’r denied that it had relied
exclusively upon the’ interview to determine the result in this
competition. The evidence indicated that application
documentation was considered and that the top three candidates
were subject to a reference check. In summary, the primary
position of the employer was that the competition was not
significantly flawed and‘therefore its result should stand.
Alternatively, if the board were to f,ind it flawed, the employer
urged us to order a re-run rather than to award the position to
the grievor. This secondary position was premised on the .a.,.
submission that insufficient evideince was before this board...to
establish the grievor as being relatively equal to the incumbents.
The award in OPSEU (Moore) and MOT, 1051-86 (Watters) w& relied
on by the employer.
+.
Article 4.3 is the provision of the collective agreement
relevant to the resolution of this grievance. It reads:
“In filling a vacancy, the employer shall give primary
consid.eration to qualifications and ability to perform
the required duties. Where qualificatiops and ability
ar~erelatively equal, length of continuous service
shall be a consideration.“,. .
AS stated by the board -in Clipperton, numerous panels of the.-
Grievance Sertlement~ Board h,ave had the opportunity to interpret
and apply the above-cited article. Clear standards have been
established for the parties, both as to the essential elements of
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a competition and as to what effect should be given to greater
seniority. The award in MacLellan and DeGrandis, 506, 507, 690,
691-81 (Samuels), summarizes the criteria established by which
assess a competition. These were stated as follows:
” I .
Candidates must be evaluated on .811 the relevant
2.
qualifications for the job as set out in the Position
Specification. ;:. t . .
The various methods used to assess the candidates
should address these relevant qualifications insofar as
is possible. For example, interview questions and
evaluation forms should cover all the qualifications.
3.
4.
: :+rrelevant factors should not be considered. *
All the members of a selection committee.shou,ld review
the personnel files of all the app~licants.
5. The applicants’ supervi.sors should be asked for their
evaluations of the appIicants.
to
6. Information should be accumulated in a systematic
way concerning all the applicants.” (Pages 25-.?6)
After considering the totality of the evidence, it is 9u.r
- jud.gment that these standards were not met in this case and that
as a consequence the competition must be described as.‘seriously
flawed. We have arrived at this conclusion for the following
reasons:
1. The panel conceded that it did not review the’personnel
files of any of the applicants, including that of the %
grievor. Indeed, as noted above, Mr, Harrison~ stated
that.it was not this employer”s practice to consider such,
information. He also expressed the opinion that “we
didn’t have -to do that.” With respect, we disagree with
such opinion. Numerous decisions of this board, including
MacLellan and DeGrandis and Clipperton have declared that
in competitions of this nature, the employer must review
and consider personnel files. Simply put, this is to
ensure that they direct their attention to the~applicant’s
qualifications and ability to perform the duties of the
position sought. If such a+l investigation is not under-
taken, the employer will not be able to fully or properly
assess what effect should be given to the applicant’s
length of continuous service. Viewed from another
perspective, the rights of members of the bargaining unit
to benefit from their greater seniority may be prejudiced
if the employer does not direct its mind in a comprehen-
sive fashion.to those factors identified in Article 4.3.
It is no answer, in our est.imatio”, to assert that a
search of personnel files was snot done in order to prevent
prejudice to ex&ernal applicants. Such a” approach taken
to the extreme would permit the employer to disregard the
personnel files of bargaining unit members in any open
competition in-which a single. external candidate was
accorded an interview. We have certainly not been
persuaded that either the collective agreement, or the
interpretation placed the&o” by prior panels of this
board, contemplates such a result. Similarly, the
employer argued that it might encounter some difficulty
in accessing personnel files contained in the offices of
other -ministries. We have no evide”c.e before us that
such difficulty surfaced here. To the contrary,. the
request for this source of. information was not eve.” made.
In any event, we think that th.e obIigation to consuIt ”
personnel files’ cannot be restricted to-competitions in
which all applicants emanate from the same ministry~.
Rather, we find that it extends to personnel files within
the_public service as a whole.
2. The panel also conceded that.it did not consult the
grievor’s supervisors in the course of the competition.
Such failure, as in the case of’ the personnel files,
served to limit the employer’s ability to assess then
grievor’s suitability for the position of Electrical
Inspector. The omission here was of some significance
in that the grievor in his letter of application claimed
to ha-ve performed some work of the type that would be
undertake” in the position being considered. The panel
did not question him ‘on t’ii‘i% statement. Notwithstanding
this fact, they concluded that he did not possess the
requisite expertise. In .oLr opinion, this was an ‘area
chat should have been canvassed with the grievor’s
supervisors, as they would have been ideally placed to
comment on the nature and extent of his responsibilities
at the Detention Centre. I” this respect, this case is
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distinguishable from the “rather unique circumsrances”
found in Moore, in which the board found that a similar
failure to consult with supervisors sh,ould not serve to
abrogate the decisionCof the panel. In that arbitration,
the board was confident that such consultation would not
have materially augmented the information already before
the panel. In our judgment, the same cannot be said here.
3. As mentioned above, the.aployer’s position was thst
resort to the personnel files and to the supervisors,was
unnecessary as the interview demonstrated the grievor’s
lack of. ability for the job. This~position seems to
assume th;it’the interview alone was sufficient to allow
the panel t~6 make the. as,sessment called for by Article
4.3. Indeed, from the evidence presented, we have no
doubt whatsoever that the grievor’s failure in the
competition was based entirely on his performance in
the interview. The assumption just alluded tp is
contrary to the underlying premise of the jurisprudences
cited by the union. Those awards suggest that questions
relating to qualifications and ability are best resolved
through recourse to a number of informationa. sources in
addition to the intervi’ew. In Poole the selection
panel relied exclusively on ansF;iven to a series of
questions without regard to information available from
appIicat.ion. forms, personnel files, or supervisors. The
board f.ound such policy to be “incomprehensible” and
“entirely inadequate”. Further, it concluded that
“there must be a full gathering of information concerning
the qualifications and ability of the applican.ts. It is
simply not.satisfactory to consciously ignore information
as was done here.“’ We agree with this assessment. In
our view, the failure to gather and consider this
additional information constitutes a violation of Article
--:, 4 . 3 .
4. This board is also concerned about the scoring of the
; .~. competition. As indicated, the panel adopted a
“consensus” approach. Each panelist initially made their
own notes of the answers gi,ven by the persons interviewed.
There is some dispute as to whether they also determin~ed
a preliminary score for each question. Mr. Morris and
Mr. Boniface denied that this was done. Mr. Harrison;
however. asserted that he scored each answer and that his
scores “were very close to the others.” His recollectC,on
obvious.ly .was that his co11 eagues had similarly scored the
answers. What is clear is that at the end of each
interview the panel discuss ed the merits of the answers
provided by the candidat?. This discussion focused on
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their recorded answers, and on their recollection of what
had been said. Thereafter, they assigned the consensus
score for each question. These scores were inscribed onto
Mr. Morris’ interview sheet, ~which was filed as Exhibit
‘13’. Unfortunately, as noted above, we were only
provided with Mr. Morris’ scoring sheets in respect of
the grievor and Mr. Szabo. We were not given his sheet
for the other incumbent nor’were we given any of the
sheets completed by the other panelists. This we find
to be a significant omission, for it does not permit this
board to assess the ent.ire basis upon which the consensus
score was assigned. By way of example, in respe,ct,~of the
grievor, we received only one of three interview sheets.
‘This might not be material had the chairman of the panel
recorded the relevant portions of his colleagues’anSwers
that were not originally noted on his sheet. This,
however, did not occur here. It is clear to the board
that the answers recorded on Exhibit ‘13’ may not reflect
the ,total answer given by’the grievor. To assess the
total answer given, one would need to review the~answers
recorded by all three of the paneIists. We furth.er noted
that’Mr. Morris was extremely vague and uncertain
the reason for variations in scores between Exhib
and ‘14’. Similarly, he was unable to shed much ;
why marks were given or withheld in respect of pa r
answers with which he was confronted. Mr. Mo’rris
stated that material beyond that contained in the
as to
tS ‘13’
ight on
t icular
also
suggested .answer could be considered in the assignment of
the consensus score. Wot being in a position to review
all of the score sheets, we~are unable to determine the
extent to which this was done. More imp~ortantly,, we are
unable to evaluate the, accuracy of the consensus score.
In summary, this board is severely handicapped by not
having all of the relevant evidence before us. If the
employer wishes to adopt the consensus model, it is
incumbent on it to provide all of the score sheets
should the matte.= proceed to arbitration. Its failure
to do so in this case raises some doubts as to the
reliability of the scores presented. This may also be
the reason for the grievo.r,,@s complaint that his answers
did not appear to have been recorded in their entirety.
The board has carefully reviewed the job posting; the ~. 1 ‘:~-posit~ion specifications for Electrical Inspector; and the
interview sheet which was utilized in the competition. We have
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concluded therefrom that both the posting and the questions asked
reflect the range of responsibilities as contained in the
specifications. In this regard we have noted the grievor’s
statement that with one exception the:questions were “good
questions”. He also agreed that they related to the job to be
performed. We have not been persuaded that a written test would
~.
have been mote appropriate for use in this competition.
Ultimately, we find th,at the flaws in the competition
dictate that it be re-run. This is not the case in which to
award the grievor one of the contested~positions. We so conclude
because there is simply insufficient evidence before us to .,. -~
properly determine whether the grievor is relatively equal in
qualifications and ability to either of the incumbents. The -.
incumbents were present during the proceedings and klere advised
of their right to fully participate.. They did no.t choose to
present any evidence on their own behalf nor were they called as
witnesses for either the union oFthe employer. We were not able
therefore to assess them first-hand. Additionally, with the
exception of Exhibit ‘14’ relating to Mr. Szabo, we were not
provided with the interview sheets for these incumbents. Given
the practice of the emplbyer, the board was also...+~pt in a
position to review the content of their personnel files. While
th.ese circumstances may raise certain questions as to the nature
of the evidentiary,onus in proceedings OF this type, we do not
.,
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think that this case should be resolved on that basis. Rather,
we find that the preferable course of action is to order a re-run
of the competition subject to conditions outlined below..’ This
will hopefully ensure that the next competition is administered
within the -standards previously established by the. Grievance
Settlement Board. The conditions are as follows:
1.
2.
3.
4.
5.
6.
7.
It should be re-stricted tb the grievor and the .-two
incumbents; .,..
The~selection’panel should not include any of the
three individuals who conducted the process which
we have found to be flaved;
The process should be commehced within thirty days
of the issuance of this award, subject to mutual
agreement as to the extension of time;
A fresh set of questions should be prepared for the
interviews which reflect the position specifications
as of the date of the last competition;
The -selection panel is co review the personnel files
available in respect of the grievor and the incumbents.
Additionally, the supervisors of the candidate& should
be consulted with respect to their past experience and
suitability for the position sought;
The selection panel is to discount th.e experience
gained by the incumbents since their appointment to
the contested Electrical..Inspector pF:.zition; ~~
The selection panel is to develop and employ a scoring
system consistent with the Yenor of this award. The
reasons for assigning par,t-i.cular gra$es to specific
questions are to be recorde’a on tliescoring sheets.
Such sheets ar.e to be secured such that they may be
available for any future proceedings..,.
The grievance is therefore allowed in part. We will
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retain juri sdiction to resol ve any difficulties that may develop
in the imp1 ementation of thi s award.
DATED at Windsor, Ontario, this liith day of December , 1988.
/ ,I, ,:,c.jn-i L’ iLLl:Et&b
M. V. Watters, Vice-Chairperson
..- /,.:: ,r ,4
M. O’Toole, Member- ,:
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